Jeff's Journal - 2/11/05 - Montgomery Alabama news.

Feb. 11, 9 a.m.

Jeff's Journal - 2/11/05

Lee Webb Lee Webb
Dave Cody Dave Cody
Fred Albers Fred Albers
Todd Rossnagel Todd Rossnagel
Lee Zurik Lee Zurik

My friend Doug Amos, host of the Morning Line on Talk Radio WACV AM 1170, inspired this week's Journal.

During our usual Friday morning chat recently on Doug's show, he suggested I follow my series on WSFA 12's four former Sports Directors (Leroy Paul, Earl Hutto, Carl Stephens and Phil Snow) with an update on the rest of the ex-members of the sports team.

Okay, Doug, here you go: thanks to the wonder of e-mail, Bob Howell's "total recall," and two weeks of digging, I've been able to track down all of the former non-Sports Director members of the WSFA 12 sports team. Ironically, there are 12 of them.

E-mails were returned, often within hours. Without fail, every one of the sports team alumni fondly remembers his time here.

So here they are - the Dynamite Dozen, in their own words:

Lee Webb (1975-1977)

Words can't express the appreciation I have for Carl Stephens and Phil Snow for giving me the opportunity to work at WSFA from 1975-1977. I was Phil's first "weekend guy."

A couple of stories remain firmly implanted in my mind after all these years. One occurred just before I actually began working there full time. I had been interning in the WSFA sports department my last semester at Auburn, beginning in March of '75. After a few weeks, they offered me a full time job upon graduation in June. It's hard to describe how elated I was to receive that offer. I knew I couldn't have picked a better place to begin my career. One afternoon in May, Carl called me into his office for a closed door meeting. The station manager was also there and a couple of other men wearing suits. It was quite intimidating. Carl said, "Lee, you know your full time job here is contingent upon you graduating in June, right? I quickly acknowledged that was correct. He said, "Well, I've got to tell you that I received a phone call today that concerns us a great deal. One of your professors shared with us that you're failing his class and will not graduate on time." My jaw dropped in disbelief. I was speechless as I tried to figure out what class I might be failing. I finally conjured up enough courage to ask him. Carl informed me that it was one my journalism classes taught by one David Housel . That's right, the former Auburn athletic director, who, at that time was a journalism professor on the Plains. At that point, Carl couldn't hold back any longer. He and the others burst out laughing. David had conspired with him. By the way, I did pass his course and graduated on time. I'll never forget what a thrill it was to walk through the doors of that station for the first time in a full-time capacity.

The next anecdote occurred just a few months later when I was sent to Tuscaloosa to conduct my first interview with Bear Bryant. If memory serves me correctly the story involved a legal challenge Coach Bryant and the Alabama athletic department mounted against the NCAA over the number of players the Tide was able to dress for games. I had diligently prepared a long list of questions. But I didn't want Coach Bryant to think that I had to refer to my notebook for the interview. Big mistake! We had set up our equipment and notified his media representative, Charlie Thornton we were ready. My reaction to meeting Coach Bryant was no different than that of many of his players, FEAR! He quickly sat down without saying much. I could tell he wasn't in a good mood, which only increased my stress. I asked the first question, which he answered in less than ten seconds. Not long enough for me to gather my thoughts and come up with a second question. I looked at him and he looked at me. What seemed like an eternity passed as I tried to think of another question. I asked myself, "Should I pull out my notebook?" Too proud to do that, I finally turned to my photographer and and asked him, "Do you have any questions for Coach Bryant?" Startled, the photographer looked up from his viewfinder and sheepishly said, "No."

In May of 1977, the weekend sports anchor position at the NBC affiliate in Miami opened up. I was born and raised in South Florida and the opportunity to cover the Dolphins was too good to pass up. I took the job and eventually became the lead sports anchor there until 1983, when I was offered the same position at the ABC affiliate in Boston. I made the transition to news in 1986, becoming the lead anchor for WTLV-TV in Jacksonville, Florida.

I worked there nine years before accepting the news anchor position at the Christian Broadcasting Network. If you couldn't tell, I was pretty "green" in those days at WSFA. But I couldn't have been at a better place to learn. I'm forever indebted to Phil Show for the incredible patience he demonstrated in mentoring me.

And I've thanked God many times for the good fortune I had in beginning my career at one of the finest stations in the country. Happy 50th, WSFA!

Dan O'Brien (1977-1978)

Among my fondest memories was the friendliness of the people, beginning with those with whom I worked, including Phil Snow, Bob Howell, Vic Irving and my University of Missouri friend and Montgomery roommate, Dave Rickey.

But, that friendliness also extended to the people of Montgomery and southern Alabama. I remember my excitement at the opportunity to cover Southeastern Conference football, especially the Auburn-Alabama rivalry (you can't fully appreciate it until you've been there), some outstanding high school football games at Cramton Bowl, the Montgomery Rebels, and the SEC and USTFF indoor championships which featured outstanding performances by Auburn's Harvey Glance and Willie Smith (I still run into Harvey at various track meets). It was a thrill to be part of WSFA-TV's USTFF broadcast with Phil Snow and Auburn's Hall of Fame track coach, Mel Rosen (Mel is another friend I've seen repeatedly over the years).

And, of course, I'll never forget the experience of the George Lindsay Celebrity Golf Tournament and the tremendous dedication of everyone involved to pull off that incredible event. I saw George Lindsay two years ago at a "Mayberry Reunion" show in New Castle, Indiana. George got a little choked up when we started talking about the tournament.

After WSFA-TV, I continued to work in TV sports in Grand Rapids, Michigan; Miami, FL; Washington, DC; Pittsburgh, PA; and Indianapolis, Indiana (my hometown).

I left TV in 1990 and worked as communications director for the Indianapolis gas utility. For the last seven years, I have been a freelance writer with an emphasis on -- but not restricted to sports. I have co-written a book on football at my alma mater: MizzouRah! Memorable Moments in Missouri Tiger Football History.

I work regularly on the press staffs for events like the Kentucky Derby, Drake Relays and other track & field events, including three U.S. Olympic Trials.

I have also written a screenplay on eccentric baseball Hall of Fame pitcher, Rube Waddell.

James Spann (1978-1979)

I grew up in Greenville as a young child and WSFA was the only TV station we could see... it has been a favorite for a long, long time! In the fall of 1978 I was working at the local TV station in Tuscaloosa (WCFT) while taking classes at the University of Alabama. One day I saw Bob Howell on campus (I think he was speaking to a class or something), and introduced myself. That conversation opened the door for me to come down and visit and apply for a job opening in the news department. The job was the "sports puppy" position; which involved anchoring sports on the weekend and reporting during the week for Phil Snow.

My real love was weather, but I saw this as a rare chance to get into Alabama's best TV news operation. I did indeed get the job, and I replaced Lee Webb (I think he works for Pat Robertson now). I was at Channel 12 from October 1978 through May 1979, when I left to briefly go to work for Larry Stevens at Y-102. The summer of 79 was one of the best in my life: I worked afternoon drive at WHHY-FM, was free to be with friends and have fun at night, and could sleep late in the morning! I left Y-102 in September 1979 when I was offered the lead weather anchor job at WAPI-TV, Channel 13, in Birmingham. Talk about a God thing... that would never happen again in a million years. Going from Montgomery radio to a lead weather job in a nice market like this. I am still doing the weather on TV in Birmingham after all these years. I have many fond memories of WSFA. I cherish the times together with my friend Victor Irving. We had so many laughs... I really miss him. I also shared tons of laughs with my fellow weekend anchors Norman Lumpkin and Mack Carmack. They were great friends. Dan Atkinson was the best TV weather person in Alabama in the 70s. I watched him nightly and he helped to shape my interest in meteorology. I loved going to Sambos with Mack Carmack on Sunday night after the 10:00 news, and to T.P. Crockmire's with Bob Howell and the rest of the crew on Friday nights. They made me feel at home and part of the team from the beginning.

One Saturday night, the weekend anchor team, Norman Lumpkin, Mack Carmack, and myself, decided to eat dinner at the Quincy's on South Blvd. Norman was driving a news car, and he pulled right up into a parking space by the front door. I told him it was a handicapped parking space (that was a new concept at the time) and we better not park there. But, Norman said don't worry about it. Then (I was very young and very immature at the time!) I told Norman and Mack that if we parked in a handicapped space, then we better act handicapped. So, the three of us walked with a fake limp to the front door. We went inside and I thought nothing of it. Three days later, the Montgomery Advertiser printed a letter to the editor with a headline that said "A NIGHT ON THE TOWN". The lady that wrote the letter said she was eating in a local steak restaurant one Saturday night, when she saw three "well dressed men" park in a handicap parking space by the front door. Then, she said she was "shocked and disgusted" to see those men acting as though they were handicapped as they walked to the front door. Later in the letter, it said it was "even more disgusting" when she saw those same three men ON WSFA-TV news at 10:00 that night!!!! Everyone in town thought the three guys were the weeknight crew: Bob Howell, Dan Atkinson, and Phil Snow! I think Norman was called into the front office, but somehow I flew under the radar screen and didn't get in trouble somehow. I know this was long but you brought back lots of memories of my time at Channel 12.

Fred Albers (1979-1980)

I worked at WSFA from August of 1979 to April of 1980. I don't know the name of the person I replaced but he went on to do weather in Birmingham. I also can't remember who replaced me but he is now doing sports in Austin. The News Director at the time, (Skip???) fired me. On my first day at work Phil Snow and I went to Tuscaloosa and he introduced me to Bear Bryant saying, "Coach this is our new weekend sportscaster Ken Albers." I was so intimidated by both Phil and Bryant I never corrected him. I would attend Bryant's weekly press conference and he called me "Ken" the entire season. 'Bama won the national title that year beating Arkansas in the Sugar Bowl and at the end of the season the Sports Information Department gave me a pair of gym shorts with "Ken Albers" on them and signed by Bryant. I still have the shorts.

After WSFA I worked a short time in Amarillo then moved to El Paso and have done two sportscasts a day here for the last 25 years. I would occasionally talk to Phil and tell him every time I got mad at work and the business I tell myself, "If Phil put up with this TV crap for 40 can I."

I enjoyed my time at WSFA and consider covering Bear Bryant one of the highlights of my career. I was fired for mispronouncing names on the air. I had a Midwest accent and placed an "r" in Washington saying Warshington. I also had a hard time saying Montgomery...I would always place the accent on the first syllable...MONT-gomery. I never knew it was a problem until the day I was fired.

Dave Cody (1980-1981, 1984-1985)

Montgomery is my home and having attended Cloverdale Junior High,Jeff Davis High School and Auburn University,I began my television career at WSFA as Phil Snow's weekend sportscaster 1980-81 then returned to anchor the 10pm Sports for Phil in 1984 when I was recognized for Associated Press Best Sportscast in Alabama.(on the wall in your newsroom). That brought an opportunity to come to Austin in 1985 and I have been here at KTBC-TV in Austin (formerly CBS, Fox in 1992) ever since. My greatest WSFA-TV memory aside from working with Phil Snow would be suddenly thrown into anchoring WSFA's tornado coverage after we encountered a twister on the northern bypass as the photographer(Bill Schaum I think) and I were leaving for qualifying at Talladega. The area was cordoned off due to the damage but we were already there and interviewed truckers whose rigs had overturned and had video of victims in ditches and homes blown apart, We returned to the station and ran that raw tape over and over all afternoon as another line of storms approached later thet day. My reports were carried on CNN.

Other WSFA memories would be interviewing Coach Paul "Bear" Bryant on a weekly basis, Bo "over the top" as Auburn ended years of losing to Alabama,the Blue-Gray All-Star Classic and helping Phil with the George Lindsay Clebrity Golf Tournament. I owe so much of my good fortune to the wonderful, professional employees of WSFA, a TV station to which I still compare all others.

Rick Ponds (1981-1985)

I came to 12 from Tuscaloosa’s WCFT channel 33 (now 33-40 out of Birmingham) as weekend sports anchor in June of 1981 and left in September of 1985 to go to Greenville, SC and WYFF-TV as weekend sports anchor. Despite being a lateral move in position it was a much bigger market and like any young sportscaster I was looking to move up. I did hate to leave though because I had made many wonderful friends at 12, including Vic Irving. Being a Bama graduate and the Tide beat reporter during my time in Montgomery, my fondest memory of working at WFSA centered around Bear Bryant. It was a Sunday night in December of 1982. I had put my show to bed early and was sitting around the newsroom killing time until the 10:00 O’clock news. About 9;45 I decided to go over and check the AP wire machine for anything of interest. While looking over the news copy the bell rang three times indicating a bulletin was coming across. It said, "Alabama football coach Paul Bear Bryant is retiring. His replacement is New York Giants coach Ray Perkins." After picking my chin up off the floor I shouted the news across the room to news anchor/producer Don Phelps who had his feet propped up on his desk reading over his copy. He scrambles to his feet and says "that’s our new lead story." He told me to make some calls and see if I could confirm it. I called down to a contact of mine in the athletic department at Alabama and his only comment was "you better get down here tomorrow morning." I led the newscast with the bulletin and as you can imagine the phones began to ring off the hook. Some just wanted to make sure they heard what we reported correctly and others were in shock, some even crying. Some even cussed us out swearing it was a nasty rumor being spread by Phil Snow to hurt Alabama. Phil called and said if it was reported by AP it was true because Herschel Nesissan (sp?), the AP’s lead sports writer at the time, was a close friend of Bryant’s. After the newscast we spent the next couple of hours just getting organized for the next day’s activities. I remember getting home around 2 a.m. and not being able to sleep. I went back to the station were we left at about 6 for trip to Tuscaloosa. When got to the coliseum around 8:00, news cars and live shot trucks were everywhere. The old film room upstairs was packed and loud with people setting up cameras and mikes and everyone buzzing in anticipation of what was about to happen. Right around 10:00 the man lumbered in the door and the noise disappeared so quickly you could have heard a pin drop. When he finally said those words "there comes a time in every man’s life when it’s time to hang it up. And that time is now for me as football coach at the University of Alabama," we knew we were witnessing something very special. It was certainly a memorable day as was his final game a couple of weeks later and his death six weeks after his final game. I covered them all and have always ranked those events as the highlights of sports broadcasting career.

I live now in Brentwood, Tennessee, a suburb of Nashville with my wife of 25 years, Sissy, and two teenage kids. I do free lance and contract web design and communications work.

Jim Jackson (1984-1988)

I began with WSFA in March 1984. My first memory is interviewing for the job with Phil Snow right after he got off the air at 6 p.m. I was attending college at AUM and that was the best time to see him. Well, the station cleaning crew made their rounds then as well. We were in Phil's office and I remember lifting my feet so the vacuum lady could clean up. Phil didn't mind the noise nor did he stop or miss a beat, we just kept on talking. Phil was a great boss and teacher and I admire and respect him still. But, they're many teachers for me. Guys like Vic Irving, Bill Schaum, Cal Callaway and Tom Foreman. I worked weekends while completing my degree at AUM in December of 1985 and went full time not long after graduation.

I left WSFA in October 1988 to pursue a dream of doing play-by-play. I had done a football season while in high school in Ozark, Alabama and wanted to try it in a college setting. Troy State University needed a promotions person who also could produce the radio and television shows for their sports. I remember spending a lot of time with Jim Fyffe and how gracious he was to share anything he had, giving me his play-by play-charts for football and basketball and basically his undivided attention. I did football, basketball and baseball and put together a 10-station radio network to carry the games. It was great while it lasted. In 1990, Auburn University called in need of a media producer for the President's office and offered a better salary. I've been in the Office of Communications and Marketing as the Supervising Producer for almost 15 years now and our oldest son Trey, who was born while we were working for WSFA, will begin his freshman year here at Auburn this fall. There are still people who come up and say something about the time I worked for WSFA. The station has an impact on this area and I am very fortunate to have called it my work home for those 4 ½ years.

Mark Thornhill (1985-1991)

I went to work at WSFA in March of 1985. Even though I had every bit of one year of experience in television, then-news director Bob Howell and then-sports director Phil Snow showed a confidence in me that is beyond words. They trusted my judgment, let me make my mistakes and always encouraged me to keep thinking and creating. In my 6 years at WSFA, I was able to literally travel the country. From New York to Los Angeles and dozens of points in between. As a young man who had never traveled outside the Southeast, needles to say I was wide-eyed and awed by the experience. But that atmosphere that they created enabled me to not only grow as a sports journalist, but also as a man. I truly thank God for leading me to Channel 12, and for the opportunity to work with people like Phil, Bob, Vic Irving and Bill Schaum. Their leadership and their friendship changed my life forever. And I'm forever in their debt. It’s a period of time that I will treasure as long as I live.

Jerome Hand (1988-1994)

I'm going to list a few "WSFA favorite memories" and let you choose, but I will put them in some kind of order.

* "George Teague Day" at the Montgomery Civic Center where they played a highlight tape on a big-screen TV. I put the tape together and shot most of the video. It includes not only his famous strip of Lamar Thomas in the Sugar Bowl and his interception return for a touchdown, but also his first interception at Alabama and punt returns for Jeff Davis at Cramton Bowl.

* Covering the World Series in 1992 with you. You can mention the hot dog eating contest if you want to, or John Smoltz's personal greeting to my fiance at the time, Susan. Covering the playoffs that year, Francisco Cabrera gave me a ball during batting practice. I was clutching that ball during game seven, when he got the game winning hit.

* My "Sunday Night Lowlight" of kicking a field goal on the Robert E. Lee practice field and falling backward in the mud on my birthday in a brand new shirt.

* I did a skydiving story and jumped from a perfectly good airplane. Jeff Harrison shot the video from the ground.

* I coined the phrase "Friday Night Football Fever." Our News Director, Lucy Riley, didn't like it at first. "Let's see if we can come up with something better," she said.

* The response we received from viewers for our coverage of Davey Allison . I think our coverage really touched people. It made me feel good that we did such a good job on a very difficult story.

* Stanley -- I can't even remember his last name, telling Green Horn, NASCAR sports reporter Jeff Shearer: "I've been racing NASCAR for 18 years, boy!" (Was it Stanley Smith ?)

* Rece Davis and I missed the longest interception return in Alabama history vs. Tulane because we were shooting stand-ups for each other during a 55-0 blowout. The final score was 62-0. (I think the record got broken the next year.)

I hope that gives you something to work with... and I started at WSFA in October of 1988... in my first weekend anchor assignment, Phillip Doyle missed a field goal on the last play of the game and BAMA lost to LSU in Tuscaloosa, 19-18.

I left WSFA in 1994. I am now the Public Information Manager at ADECA, the Alabama Department of Economic and Community Affairs. I have two children, Meredith (4 in Feb.) and Matthew (1) and a wonderful wife.

Sean Clarke (1994-1996)

(Sean did not have e-mail access this week. He lives in Birmingham, but he's in New Jersey this week, training for his new job in pharmaceutical sales. He joined WSFA 12 fresh out of college, having graduated from Auburn in the spring of '94. A former football walk-on, Terry Bowden had selected Sean to represent the Tigers for the coin toss in the '93 Iron Bowl. He still wears his 11-0 ring with pride. Sean realized television was not for him during the '96 Atlanta Olympics (rooming with me for two weeks can have that effect on people!) He faxed in his two-week notice from Atlanta, then spent most of the past decade as a youth pastor in Mobile (Padres pitcher Jake Peavy was in his youth group) and Birmingham. With two pre-schoolers at home and one on the way (not to mention he's now in his '30's and it's getting a little more difficult to relate to teenagers), Sean felt led to change careers. He called from Jersey between seminars.)

"It was weird for me to cover Alabama," Sean recalls, "because I had played for Auburn just one year before. But it was good to get to know the Bama players and fans." "I remember my first opportunity to cover Auburn," Sean says. "The LSU game in 1994, with all of the interceptions. I was in the press box. When Auburn blocked a field goal, I stood up and yelled, 'Yes!' I knew I was in trouble then, since the number one rule is 'No cheering in the press box.' So I went down to the sidelines. One of Auburn's media relations people told me, 'if we score again, meet me underneath the stands.' When we took the lead, I went crazy!"

Todd Rossnagel (1996-2000)

I'll never forget my first day of work at WSFA. Jeff Shearer told me to go out and shoot various high school football teams that had just started practicing football. He gave me "directions" to each school. Let me just say this - I'm lucky I didn't end up BACK in Louisiana. The one memory that lasts with me to this day is easy: Wiregrass Football. Covering the Fever in South Alabama on Friday Nights is unlike anything I have ever experienced. The people, the players, the food, the coaches, the food, the stadiums, the mosquitoes, did I mention the food? It all added up to an experience I will never forget. To be honest, I don't even remember how "The Ross" started. It just came out one night during the delivery of the highlights. To this day, even here in south Louisiana, someone will walk up to me and scream "ROSS!!!" In fact, when I ran into Auburn Tigers defensive end Bret Eddins at the Sugar Bowl, he told me, "To this day when I see someone get hit really hard, I scream ROSS!" Besides the Fever, there are three memories that stick out.

Mr. Perfect

What an amazingly dumb idea that turned out to be great television. Jeff told me to head out and cover Buckmasters, the famed hunting and fishing expo with celebrities from various sports, including wrestling. I told Jeff I was going to have a little fun with the wrestling celebrity, some cat called "Mr. Perfect." I explained to "Mr. Perfect" that his "sport" was a complete fraud and in essence, he himself was a fraud. He then proceeded to throw me in a huge puddle of mud. I forgot two things: One - It was winter - the water was downright frigid. And secondly, when you get thrown in a mud puddle, take out your wallet BEFORE you get tossed. I lost 50 bucks that day! I'll never forget showing the tape to Phil Snow for the first time. Upon seeing the toss, the always subdued and restrained Snow laughed so hard he fell into a fetal position. I thought he had laughed so hard, his heart failed.

Gene Stallings

During my first year at WSFA, 1996, I covered Alabama football. I had no idea at the time, as no else did, that this would be Coach Stallings' last season with the Tide. I'll never forget coming to the station on Iron Bowl Saturday to anchor. When I got there - early in the afternoon, the phone rang. I answered on the first ring, "WSFA Sports, how can I help you?" Silence. "Hello?", I said. "Gene Stallings is quitting at the end of tonight's game", click. "Hello?!?" I had no clue who it was. But to be honest with you, I just thought it was some ya-hoo calling to have a little fun. I gave it very little credence. Later that night, all of Alabama was shocked by the news that Gene Stallings had just coached his last Iron Bowl. I would still love to know who called me that day! I would later cover Alabama at the Outback Bowl (which, by the way, still has the greatest pre-game media meal of all - Outback Steaks!) versus Michigan. The players carried Stallings off the field on their shoulders after a fantastic win over a very good Michigan team. Several months later, Coach Stallings broke his hip. Jeff and I paid Coach a visit at his ranch in Texas. We rented a pick-up truck at the Dallas airport and drove out to visit with the coach. I'll never forget his incredible graciousness and hospitality.


It was a dull December day, 1996. Phil Snow asked me to fill in for him at 10pm, as he had a function to attend. More on that "function" in a moment. Alabama was playing Michigan in the Outback Bowl in Tampa, Florida. Auburn, coming off a disappointing season, was headed to the Independence Bowl in Shreveport, Louisiana to face Army. During the 10:00 broadcast, I said, "If you're headed to Shreveport, Louisiana for the Independence Bowl, bring along a good book or a board game, because there is nothing to do in Shreveport, Louisiana." I thought the comment was pretty funny, not to mention dead-on accurate. After all, as I explained, I am a Louisiana native - I know these things. What I didn't know was that the "function" Phil Snow was attending was a party for the Auburn alumni, the Auburn athletic staff and various representatives from the Independence Bowl, including the mayor of the Shreveport, Louisiana. Phil asked all of the special guests to gather around the television and watch WSFA's sports segment. Needless to say, when they heard my comment, they were not pleased. The next day, Phil apologized for "our young sports reporter" who made some comments about Shreveport that "probably weren't thought through". Phil was very apologetic and I understand the difficult position I put him. But let's be honest, for those of you that went to Shreveport, was I right, or was a right?

You can hear Todd every Monday and Thursday morning on The Morning Line with Doug Amos on WACV Radio. He anchors the morning and noon news at WBRZ-TV in Baton Rouge.

Lee Zurik (1997-1999)

My first day at WSFA, I am excited, but nervous about moving to a new station, and know there is pressure from Auburn and Alabama fans to give their schools equal coverage. So I was confused, to say the least, when I watched my first WSFA sportscast by Phil Snow. The majority of his report was dedicated to "bird watching" and a ship "Old Ironsides" that he had visited earlier that summer. Luckily I was told by others not to worry, I wouldn't have to file similar reports.

Lee is a sports anchor and reporter at WWL-TV in New Orleans, his hometown.

Toss in the current WSFA 12 sports team members, Derek Steyer and John Heckman, and you have what I like to call a "Sportscasting Dream Team!"

Thank you guys, for sharing your memories in "Jeff's Journal."

See you next week.

God bless - Jeff

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