Raw Notes from the Testimony of Alice Stanford

These are raw notes transcribed from paper of Tuesday's hearing.  No computers were allowed to be used in the courtroom.  This is NOT an official transcript but is provided to give readers a flavor of what witnesses were saying.

Alice Stanford lives in Ozark, Alabama and works at the dining facility on Fort Rucker.

She has worked for the contractor, InterMark (sp), which runs the facility since December of 2005.  She says she was not employed before that time except for "I helped out at our church as a pastor's assistant."

According to Stanford this was from 2002 until December 2005, "until I started next job."  Asked if she left the church after 2004, Stanford says,"I believe it was."

Stanford worked at Greater Sardis Missionary Baptist Church in Ozark where Stephen C. Hudson is now the pastor.

Alice Stanford identified the subpoena which informed her she would be appearing before the court.

Counsel is asked to approach as the judge reviews something with the witness.

The judge says something to the effect of "Let's begin with your involvement as assistant to Rev. Hudson."  Mrs. Stanford says the earliest year of work there was 2003, but it might have been 2002.

Judge Fuller then asks, "While working as Rev Hudson's administrative assistant did you ever come to know a pastor in the Birmingham or Bessemer area by the name of Rev. Charles Winston?"

"I know him," responds Stanford.

"When did you first become acquainted?" asks the judge.  "This year," is the reply.

"After Dec. 2005 or before?" "Afterwards," answers Mrs. Stanford.

"After the trial or before?" Stanford says,"After, I got to know him, probably met him before that."

Mrs. Stanford tells the church her church goes and visits other churches.  "I've met a lot of preachers."

The judge asks if she met Stanford before June 29, 2006 (the day of the verdict) to which Stanford now replies, "I don't recall."  The judge tries again,"Had you met Rev. Winston before that date or after that date?" Stanford seems to say, "No, know him."

The judge then asks the witness if Winston "preached at a service that you attended before that date?"  "Not that I recall," answers Mrs. Stanford.

The judge then wanted to know what discussions Mrs. Stanford had "with regard to the trial?"

She says,"I talked to my pastor about some problems that Juror #5 was having and he suggested I talk to a pastor friend of his who had a wife who was an attorney."  Mrs. Stanford says this was either in September or August.

The judge asks, "Could it have been the first week of August this year? It could have been is the reply.

Mrs. Stanford says she talked about "things that have been bothering me myself with Juror #5.  He had been having problems and stuff that was in Juror #5's head.  I had been discussing with my pastor. "

The witness says Winston recorded "what I said and suggested that I talk to his wife about this."

"I didn't know what to do and Juror #5 didn't know what to do."

She says when she first met with Winston "I told him about some things."

"You described to him some problems Juror #5 was having?" Right

"Rev. Winston wrote down some questions?"  "He was asking me, what kind of problems was Juror #5 having on the jury."

Judge Fuller remarked at this time, "I don't want to get into those things today."

Mrs. Stanford told the judge Juror #5 also talked with Winston.

"Were you present?" asked the judge.  "Yes," came the reply.

"I believe he wrote the stuff out with a pen and later did it on a typewriter or computer," says Mr. Stanford

"He said he had to type, print it out...I don't know where that took place."

Mrs. Stanford says she did not help Rev. Winston prepare the papers. But the judge gets more specific.

"Did you watch him prepare the content of any affidavit you signed?"

Mrs. Stanford,"He wrote something out, he went and typed it out and I signed it."

Judge Fuller at this point tells Alice Stanford, "I'm not trying to trick you."

At this point in the proceedings there was some dispute over what day of the week August 9, 2006 was on.  It was later settled that August 9, 2006 was on a Wednesday.  Mr. Feaga wanted to approach Judge Fuller to help solve the quandary with the calendars, but Judge Fuller, who was in no mood to trifle with Tuesday when asked by Feaga, "May we approach to get this matter straightened out?" responded with a stern, "No."

Alice Stanford is asked about Court Exhibit 3 which is her affidavit.  The date of the affidavit is August 9, 2006.

"I know that it wasn't notarized when I signed it."

Mrs. Stanford says she believes that on Sunday, Aug. 6, Winston "spoke at church," but that she wasn't there and didn't talk to him.  The judge asked if she talked to Winston sometime between 6-9 August and she replied,"It wasn't on a Wednesday...Could have been a Sunday, but I thought it was a Monday."

Judge Fuller asked Mrs. Stanford how many times she spoke to Rev. Winston about the problem.  She responded "two or three times but at that time, before the 9th, I believe it was one time."  She says as far as she knows Juror #5 spoke with Winston once during that time.

The judge asked if Stanford thought Juror #5 met with Winston again before the affidavit was signed. "As far as I know, I met with him one time.  I think he talked with (Juror #5 - in court she used Juror #5's first name), twice.

"Who was present?" asked the judge.  "Myself, Juror #5, Rev. Winston, Rev. Stephens."

The judge questions Alice Stanford about her affidavit. "Is the content of this paragraph a summary that Rev. Winston prepared from a conversation?"

"I was telling him and he was writing."  The judge asked her if Winston was right with a pencil to which Stanford replied,"Yes"

The judge asked if it was then reduced to a typewriter or computer and Alice Stanford responded in the affirmative.

The witness tells the judge she talked to Rev. Winston on the phone and Judge Fuller wants to know what she talked about.  "Some of the stuff that is in this affidavit," she says.

The judge asks her to again review court's exhibit #3 and wants to know if there's anything in that exhibit that was not in the original affidavit.  Alice Stanford says the type is too small at which point Judge Fuller takes off his glasses, hands them to her and says, "See if you can read that right there,"which draws one of the few chuckles heard in the courtroom Tuesday.

Alice Stanford tells the judge, "No, I'm pretty blind."

She again tells the judge of talking to Winston about "problems I was having with him (Juror #5) mentally and and emotionally and stuff."

The judge asked if this resulted in the affidavit to which Alice Stanford replied, "Yes."

She says she does not recall the exact date she signed the affidavit.  Asks if she knows what day of the week she signed and she again responds,"Not the exact date."

Next the judge wants to know how the telephone call took place.  "Rev. Hudson had talked to Rev. Winston...I believe he said he was going to be here at our church and he could take down some notes at that time."

Asked if Rev. Hudson came to her house, Stanford says no.

"Me and Rev. Hudson were talking on the church phone and he had Mr. Winston on his cell phone."

"Who called you?" asks the judge.  "I believe Mr. Winston," says Alice Stanford.

Asked what they talked about, Alice Stanford says, "I just told him Juror #5 was having some regrets and couldn't sleep and some things that went on with deliberations and wanted to know what to legally do."

"He said he was going to be down at the church."  Did you offer to meet with him?" Yes.  The judge asks if this meeting was on the same day the affidavit was prepared and the witness said, "I believe it was."  Again the judge asks, "Was it prepared on the day you signed it?"  "I believe it was but I'm thinking he left to get it typed up," says Alice Stanford.

"What was it you gave Rev. Winston when he left to go back to Ozark," asks Judge Fuller.  Alice Stanford was not sure what the judge was asking so Judge Fuller continues.  "He took the original?" "Yes," answered Stanford.

"You kept a copy?" Yes.  "He left with the original?" Yes.  Were you provided a copy after it was notarized?" No.

Judge Fuller asks Alice Stanford if she was aware Winston also left with Court's Exhibit #4 which is Juror #5's affidavit and she says yes.

Asked if she were present Alice Stanford responds in the affirmative.  Asked if Juror #5 was present when she signed her affidavit, she responds "yes."

Asked if Rev. Winston was present when she signed, Alice Stanford says yes.  "Was anyone else present?" Rev. Hudson.  She says no one else was present.

Asked if Rev. Winston took the two originals (of court's exhibits 3 and 4) back with him to Bessemer, Stanford replies "As far as I know."

"Did you give Rev. Winston anything else...?" - "Not that I know of."

"Copy of Social Security Card?" asks the judge.  "Not that I recall."

"Driver's license?" I don't think so.

"Anything in addition to original affidavit?" I don't think so.

Asked if after Rev. Winston left with the affidavits she had a conversation with anyone about the case besides Rev. Winston and Rev. Hudson, Alice Stanford says, "No sir, I did not."

"Tell me how it came about a second affidavit was signed, Court's Exhibit #6?"

"Rev. Hudson called me and said he(Winston) was coming and his wife was coming and wanted to talk to Juror #5 and we met there at the church."

"Do you recall when you met him?"  It was the same day.  Alice Stanford seems a bit confused  "It was either the second or third time."

August 9, 2006 was the first affidavit and September 1st was the second affidavit of Juror #5 witnessed by Alice Stanford.

Asked if she met with Winston or anyone else between August 9, 2006 and September 1, 2006, Alice Stanford says "I don't think so...I talked to Rev. Hudson about Mrs. Winston.  Alice Stanford says she was "going to be with him (Juror #5) to see what paperwork he had to do."

Asks if she understood the affidavit was going to be provided to the court, she responded yes and she told the judge that she was not surprised.

She says she doesn't remember the day of the week or whether or not it was day or night but says.  "I think it was beginning to get night and by the time they finished it was night."  She says Rev. Winston, Debra Winston, Rev. Hudson, herself, and Juror #5 were present.  Then she is asked if she knows the notary and Alice Stanford says she does know her that the notary "lives close to the church...I went and picked her up...I've always known her family."

Alice Stanford says she doesn't know what was discussed.  "I don't know what was discussed.  She got papers and read and she said she needed Juror #5's signature and my signature."

"Did you even talk to her?" "No sir."

Alice Stanford said originally she didn't know if the notary was paid and then said.  "I believe she wrote out something for Rev. Hudson but I didn't see anybody get paid."

Asked if the second affidavit was prepared at the church, she told the judge "at the church on the computer by Mrs. Winston."

The judge then goes back to Alice Stanford's work at Greater Sardis Missionary Baptist Church.  Under questioning she says she did paperwork for Rev. Hudson and took phone messages and schedule Hudson's personal business.  She says she was not involved in any church business, "just the reverend and his office."

The judge moves back to Juror #5 and asks Alice Stanford if she knew if Rev. Hudson had any contact with anyone from the U.S. government or associated with Don Liegeman or Richard Scrushy to which she replies "Not to my knowledge."

"To your knowledge has Rev. Hudson ever met Gov. Siegelman?"

"Not to my knowledge."  As to Scrushy she also replies "no."

"Anyone who was working for either of them?" No"

Alice Stanford says the first time she met Debra Winston was when she signed the second affidavit and that she spoke with Debra Winston for the first time at that time as well.

Asked if she had spoken to Debra Winston since then, Alice Stanford told Judge Fuller "When this came out in the news..."

"Did she tell you to say anything or not to say anything in this hearing?"  No, she didn't tell me to say anything or not to say anything.  I was wondering why I was coming.  What my purpose to being here today.  I guess because I signed the affidavit."

Judge Fuller takes some time to explain to Alice Stanford why she is here.  Explaining that the court doesn't know where the original documents are.  Also he talks to her about the fax tags on the copies of the affidavits, "probably from one of the attorneys' offices in this case, nothing wrong with that and I want you to know that."

Asked if she knows where the originals are, Alice Stanford says no.  She says she has need been paid or compensated or told to expect compensation for her part in the affidavits nor has any member of here family.  "No, to my knowledge no one has."